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 Post subject: Re: re:Spite drama
PostPosted: April 5th, 2018, 12:14 am 
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Seeing as Nate and I are molded into one now, I'll simply reply for the both of us.

Danno wrote:
If the thought crossed your mind, what was holding you back? Evidently, you were just waiting for him to fire the first shot before unleashing all hell upon him. I don't think it's fair to taunt him and bait him into it, then act like it's his fault for actually doing it.


Firstly, Abi made the first threat on Nate/ you I guess in conjunction. Then he threatened Aubrey. These threats come after a very personal banning of a Discord user because he didn't like them. So, really, the taunting, and baiting, who was really doing that from the beginning? I own up to my threat on him, and in no way do I think it was without reason. If you give it, you take it, and in that way you learn; which as I stated to you privately, was my true intention.

Danno wrote:
Well, something turned Aubrey against him. Seemingly, Krystal (and you by extension) rallied Aubrey's support during Sairo vs. Krystal, though I don't really know the full details.

+
Dann0 wrote:
There is some part of the story missing here. Abi only decided to commandeer Discord after he had a problem with Aubrey. I think this may have happened during the Sairo vs. Krystal incident; there was something about him feeling betrayed. I'm not sure if you vented to Aubrey and then if Aubrey argued with Abi about it, or something like that. I'm not sure how much you talked to Aubrey previously, and you don't have to share your entire chatlogs or anything. I just feel like some context might be missing. There was something that made Abi really dislike Aubrey. Was it as simple as Aubrey taking your side on the Sairo vs. Krystal issue, or was there something more?


I hope Aubrey doesn't get too upset with me.. but nothing in our convos were demeaning, or trash talking like you keep saying, so I've compiled them. Frankly: I never approached anyone on the Discord for Res after I left. Aub had already told me that you had informed her already. So Nate and I hadn't told anyone at this stage, but you and Abi felt like you had to share it to everyone? Well whoddahthunkit /goodpoint . Welp, my personal opinion was dev stuff is private stuff. I only involved myself because I was involved in the res discussions from the get go - I helped where I could, from an OUTSIDE perspective, which I thought is what you needed on some of the progress. Plus I had hoped to be trustworthy, which I held to for the most part.
It's a flaw I have, that I stand up to bullies, and always gets me in trouble, but trampling on those who don't have power by using your power against them, I have NEVER stood for. Geesus, I think it's common knowledge that I debate for that sort of thing. Well I've attached the convo, so whatever the reason as to everyone turning on Abi - maybe Abi needs to figure that out himself, because each of us all had separate reasons.. Kaly getting a handful of dislike, Nate getting grudges/ misjudges/ paranoia slung his way, me having issue with is bias behaviour, and Aub.. well she can tell us that whenever she is ready, but I think it was pretty much hateful on her side. All of us were victims of Abi's behaviour, even Abi himself.

Also, don't misjudge me.. I am not a hateful person. If Abi had apologized, even recognized my public apology, I wouldn't be here on CF arguing with you. I don't hate Abi, but I stand with Kaly - I don't want anything to do with him.

Dannp wrote:
If Abi said something to that effect and you accepted it, would you be able to just forget about everything that's happened? Would you not see him differently or at least be somewhat wary? I think the damage is done in situations like that. An apology can help take the sting off of it, but can you ever really forget the ugly side of a person once you've experienced it?


Let's disagree. Relationships are complex, sometimes so complicated that you can get lost in what the relationship even is anymore. We've both grown up with relationships that aren't cut and dry like this. How many times can you forgive a person before it loses the meaning? That's not something many people have to ask, but Nate and I have. Even trying to express where we stand on this point, it's hard to clearly make the emotions coherent, but the point is: Abi never tried to apologise, nor did he try to work things out with any of us, nor has he made any kind of action or sentiment to do anything in the way of a solution. What you and him are talking about which is in stark difference to what everyone else's relationship with him is like is the exception. Complex or not to boot, if he had tried to apologise, or make amends, that's not forgettable either. So this point, may just be from your own perspective on what you tolerate, but we're not your normal human (especially because we've formed ourselves together as one being! Wham! these pants are uncomfortable @_@)

I've attached Aub's convo with me, also just for my sake to show that I'm not biased, even when Abi was trash talking Nate to you, and you were passing it along, I still kept talking with Abi without bias, so this is showing our last private convo before I threatened him:

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Attachment:
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 Post subject: Re: re:Spite drama
PostPosted: April 5th, 2018, 7:23 pm 
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Krystal wrote:
Seeing as Nate and I are molded into one now, I'll simply reply for the both of us.

I hope you know I don't mean any offense by such statements, though it does sound funny when you say it like that. I mean, you take the same side in arguments, agree on the same opinions, defend each other the same as if you were defending yourself, generally stick together when playing games or being part of communities, etc. You're synced up well enough that what you express about yourself is also true for your partner.

Of course, you are two separate people. If Nate said something I didn't like, for example, I wouldn't act like you said it and hold it against you. However, at the same time, if Nate was mad at me, you'd probably understand his side of the story very clearly, empathize, and also be mad at me.

Quote:
So, really, the taunting, and baiting, who was really doing that from the beginning? I own up to my threat on him, and in no way do I think it was without reason. If you give it, you take it, and in that way you learn; which as I stated to you privately, was my true intention.

Well, if you consider it to be different, then I suppose I'd also have to consider it to be different.
Abi - Not taunting or baiting to get Nate to slip up, he just wanted to straight up boot Nate. He wanted to execute his decision.
You - Trying to give Abi a taste of his own medicine and possibly get him to slip up with no actual intentions of publicly dragging his name through the mud.

If we want to make it about who started all this bad strawberry juice, we could pinpoint it and place the blame on someone. It won't change anything, though. I find both parties guilty of slandering each other. If someone smashes your window, you can't go out and smash their window for revenge and then play innocent because "he started it". Once you've crossed that line, you're just as guilty as they are.

Quote:
but nothing in our convos were demeaning, or trash talking like you keep saying, so I've compiled them.

You're right, I apologize for insinuating that you did say something to cause a conflict between Aubrey and Abi. Evidently, Aubrey was concerned about you. I don't remember exactly if that unfriending accident may have made Abi think you were seriously yellow off at him or something? In which case, he might have felt your reaction was unreasonably harsh, which may have also caused him to be more upset with Aubrey for taking your side (assuming that one disagreement was all it took to end your friendship).
Of course, that would be a misunderstanding, which could've been cleared up. The tension between Abi and Nate may have transferred to you, causing him to not want to bother trying to seek resolution with you. Perhaps this transferred tension was solidified when you represented Nate's feelings with your 'going public' bait.

I'm not trying to make excuses for him, I just think this is one more thing that could be added to the big list of misunderstandings.

@Aubrey running Discord: Interesting that Aubrey also recognized that she was the actual owner of that Discord server, just like I explained in my last post.

@Favouritism for Sairo the troll: I talked to Aubrey about that part sometime after your conversation. We used to troll TFG kinda hard, so I don't think it would've been fair for me to just dismiss them as trolls. I also had no idea Sairo was a prominent (?) troll, actually. I thought Dracohawk left the internet because they wanted to leave their Spawn of Satan history behind. I mean, we know that people on Spawn of Satan were posting nudes and PMing it to people on the TFG forum - I thought that was the primary reason. I have no idea what the relationship between Dracohawk and the TFG team was like. As I also explained on the game's forum, it's within my rights to show my work to who I want to, so I have no guilt about that.

Quote:
Aub had already told me that you had informed her already. So Nate and I hadn't told anyone at this stage, but you and Abi felt like you had to share it to everyone? Well whoddahthunkit

When I was talking to Aubrey about Sairo/Moogle, she actually mentioned it first that she knew Abi/Nate didn't get along and that you were upset over the whole issue. From what I gather, Aubrey had info on the Abi/Nate issue from Abi only, so I summarized why I believe both sides have some valid points. It seems I mostly just talked about myself in that conversation, though - I talked a lot about goals for the game's release, how I knew I wasn't working on the game enough compared to Abi's insane dedication in November/December, what factors might be causing me to be unproductive, and plans for how I could update the game consistently in the future at a casual pace (such as making a couple new outfits per month).

I don't believe I informed Aubrey about anything she didn't basically already know about (or anything that didn't become public knowledge shortly afterwards, anyway). I felt it was fair to give Aubrey a little information on the other half of the story since she was already aware of Abi's frustration. All I said about that matter was this:
dano 2 aub (heavily summarized and not elaborated upon) wrote:
in summary, Abi is frustrated that Nate hasn't been active in development for the past couple months or so - to the point of not even saying a word for weeks in a row. We have certain things we need to have done before we launch the game, some of which is stuff Nate could do, so Abi assigned it to Nate. Nate didn't accomplish any of these tasks

Nate's side is basically that 3 months ago, we had an argument and it seems we didn't quite get to a point where Nate felt the matter was settled. It hurt his feelings, so he didn't exactly feel motivated to work on things. He did start working on something about 2 weeks ago, but now he's in the middle of moving, has no internet, has problems with his video editing software, etc. He is working on it, though. At this very moment, Abi wants to remove Nate from the team because he's not getting anything done. While Nate is trying to get something done.

Not like I went to the extent of sharing entire chatlogs or otherwise highly confidential information. /WOF

Quote:
How many times can you forgive a person before it loses the meaning? That's not something many people have to ask, but Nate and I have.

I suppose Abi had that same sentiment regarding progress from Nate. Whether Nate's reasons for not having much to show were considered valid or not, Abi just got to a point of saying "How many more times are we going to let this slide? Will anything ever change?"

Quote:
the point is: Abi never tried to apologise, nor did he try to work things out with any of us, nor has he made any kind of action or sentiment to do anything in the way of a solution.

I think that could just be another complicated matter of perspective. Abi could say the same back to you. In the "Honesty" topic, you did apologize at the end and say:
Quote:
I wish he had gotten my message which involved an apology before he posted publicly, but I cannot prove I did that. Discord doesn't keep history of messages unable to be sent.

From where Abi stands, perhaps he didn't receive an apology in time for it to matter. A late apology might be better than no apology at all, but let's say, for example, I deleted your + Nate's CF accounts and all your posts, then I tell you that I'm sorry I'm sorry after a couple days. With the damage done, I doubt it'd be easy to accept that apology and go back to posting on CF again as usual (since you'd probably think that it could happen again). I mean, it sucks since your heart was in the right place when you decided to make peace and apologize, but I guess venting your frustration at Abi ('going public', etc.) wasn't something you could expect to take back in the first place.

I don't recall Nate apologizing or trying to make peace after getting booted and thrownig several insults at Abi. It's sort of funny/unfair that in some cases, you and Nate can represent each other by default just by expressing your own opinion, yet in a case like this, your apology wouldn't count for Nate.
Anyway, I know you'll obviously be thinking "Why the hell would Nate apologize for being unfairly booted from the team? Nate is the VICTIM here!" I mean, I think his first reaction should've been to leave the insults out and just try to talk to Abi. "Honesty" may have been passive-aggressive, but Abi did express some desire to work things out.

Abi wrote:
Again, I apologize for my part in any of this and I would appreciate the same courtesy from all of you.

If you are willing and able to work without any drama, speak up now. If not, I understand and wish you the best in all your future projects

Nate chose to burn all bridges with Abi rather than try to take Abi up on this offer. Evidently, Nate had no desire to make peace and decided "... Anyhow, my point stands. Good day. it, I'll just go out with a bang". That is, unless he thought ridiculing Abi would help him wake up and smell the coffee. Maybe it's fine to talk that way with me since he probably knows that it'd take a lot more than that to offend me (such as Nate telling me to ... Anyhow, my point stands. Good day. off a couple times in this thread), but most people will close themselves off from having a calm, sensible discussion if you treat them that way.

Anyway, I just think it goes both ways. Yes, Abi could've showed more kindness and sincerity in his apology rather than being passive-aggressive. Abi could've done all the work to make amends with Nate. Or better yet, Abi could've just self-actualized his quantum focus to stop having a problem with Nate. Abi had less reason to go out of his way to make peace, though, since:

a) Abi is guaranteed his position since he's impossible to replace; if he quits, the game ceases to exist. This is a project that he started (GSO, not CFO).

b) Abi worked his hat off on the game, with Aubrey citing that Abi worked on the game for 8+ hours some days. With all the time he put into the project (and with his tangible progress), he basically earned a very large share of it. He didn't have any obligation to value Nate as an equal team member if the work-ownership was something like... Abi:48%, Danno:48%, Nate:4%. Basically, "Why should I put up with someone I don't like when I own such a large share of this project?"

c) As a project, Abi is moving it forward, whereas Nate was not. Regardless of who has enough free time or w/e irl obligations, the project has undisputable demands. That is, it cannot exist unless we make it exist with art, design, marketing, music, programming, testing, and writing. I will say that booting the writer/marketer/designer lacks foresight, especially since it'll be hard to trust someone new for the job. However, it can be said that Abi was consistently doing the work that the project required, thus securing his position. Due to numerous circumstances, Nate was not fulfilling this same committment, which created an opportunity for his role to be called into question.

In other words, there may have been more reason for Nate to contact Abi rather than the other way around because:
a) The game can survive without Nate. He also did not start this project (GSO), he joined later.
b) Nate barely did anything with the game's writing and planning throughout 3 years of casual/inactive development and 1 year of active development. He had far less stake in the project based on individual effort/tangible progress.
c) Nate was not doing what the project required. It'd make more sense to be humble about that instead of publicly insulting the one who's carrying the project.

The bottom line is, either one of them could've approached the other to resolve the problems, but neither of them wanted to.
For Abi, letting go of Nate would have minimal impact on the project, so it was never something he needed to fight to prevent. Abi could always quit or get booted and continue making an MMO since he has the functional source code.
For Nate, the project would I don't take kindly to your mannerisms, I don't. for him if he did anything besides make peace with Abi (quitting, getting booted, or removing Abi). After all, a few stories and gameplay ideas won't make an MMO. Nate had much more to lose if things went sour, so I think he could've put in a little more effort to patch things up.

Of course, I understand Nate was busy, lacking energy, lacking motivation to deal with Abi, not wanting to kiss Abi's feet, having internet + software issues, Nate was IN THE PROCESS of making the video (what the project requires), etc. Someone needed to compromise a little and break the ice, though, and it wasn't gonna be Abi since he basically had nothing to lose by not compromising (besides the fact that he already compromised to some extent and postponed booting Nate for 2 months). I can't say for sure if it would've helped if Nate communicated more or took Abi up on his offer in "Honesty". What I can say is that the odds of success would have improved, though, compared to the 0% success rate of telling the world how much he hates Abi and how unreasonable Abi is. I get that Nate was yellow off from being booted so suddenly, but revenge only guaranteed that he would be on the way to destruction.


edit:
Oh yeah, and you can go ahead and call me Adolf toxic waste, too, I guess. I haven't thought about it for a long time, but all of this has been a reminder of the dangers of mixing friends with authority. On Cloudflash, I used to appoint moderators based on community elections. I think EqualsDee won the last election? I don't remember exactly how he was appointed. We all know how that turned out, though. Things became quite awkward between he and I when we had disagreements (especially regarding Cruise), which eventually led to him quitting. We couldn't work out our differences when it came to authority, which ruined what we shared as friends.

Since then, I decided not to let anyone else have any authority on CF. I mean, for one, there wasn't really a need for a moderator in the first place with a community this small. More importantly, it's hard to run this place the way I want to run it if I have to be concerned with someone else's opinion. I enjoy a casual toxic waste here and there, whereas EqualsDee couldn't tolerate such nonsense. He's not an yo-yo, he just wanted us to have quality discussions and not waste our time checking topics just to see an emoticon or "Laugh Out Loud (L.O.L. for short)" post. Unfortunately, we didn't work well together, so we had to part ways.
The only way I can run CF exactly as I want is if I have direct control over everything. That means no deleting posts, carefully editing posts that go too far, no deleting accounts, no permabans, semi-quality discussions with light toxic waste allowed, etc. If anyone else had control, they might let their emotions get the better of them, resulting in a permaban or deleted posts or w/e. That's just not how I operate, though, even if they insulted me on a more personal level.

I've also been a dictator in my Spawn of Satan guilds. I was the only one with my vision and personality, so I didn't let anyone else join my ranks. I mean, I wouldn't want someone to get promoted or booted from the guild for any reason other than what I deem to be suitable.

idk, I guess working with other people can lead to troublesome situations. I don't like the idea of working with friends who are "below me" in the hierarchy, as it's toxic waste to not treat friends as equals. On the other hand, I also don't like working with them as equals if they aren't making an equal effort. If you treat someone as an equal when they're clearly doing less, isn't it just kindness? Am I just offering special treatment to friends when I wouldn't tolerate it from a random? Doesn't it undermine my own value to consider my years of work equal to someone who, for example, just hangs out and casually posts ideas (such as our CFO "team" memberlist.php?mode=group )? There are just many ways something like this can go wrong, I guess. Perhaps it's even inevitable.

Not that I'm saying I had a problem with Nate, personally, besides not being impressed by him telling me development is a "waste of time" without a coder (while I went ahead and "wasted my time" making art regardless). I'd accommodate his life circumstances and not be in a rush to get that writing and stuff if it were up to me alone. I'm just saying that in retrospect, it's not too surprising things went downhill when we have a team involving someone who is not a close, 10+ year friend and when Nate is unable (and in some cases unwilling) to make an equal effort (such as being unwilling to even attempt one single map). Maybe focusing on the "friend" aspect could've earned more lenience, but it looks like Nate and Abi didn't want to be friends, simple as that.

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 Post subject: Re: re:Spite drama
PostPosted: April 5th, 2018, 8:42 pm 
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I hope you understand I have no ill will towards you after everything that's happened. We are still friends, despite me telling you to "... Anyhow, my point stands. Good day. off" and whatnot several times through this thread - you know how I express myself when I'm debating a topic anyway, so I'd hoped you hadn't thought I was telling you that you're a scumbag or w/e by my tone. I don't think you are, and I know and understand exactly why you're doing what you're doing, it's all good.

I take issue with the last part of your post - I did want to be friends with him but he decided one day that he didn't want to anymore. Sure, w/e. Our banter and discussion was lighthearted (his words, not mine), and everything was fine up until around Christmas when I told him "next time let's all agree on something and stick to it" re: the kaly ban. I don't think he liked being 'brought in line' by someone who was so very beneath him, especially in his corporate world where he likely gets told what to do on a daily basis.

Anyway, as I've proven several times now, I wanted to be friends and my discussion with him was nothing short of amicable. I could have purse him out for not listening to me re: the kaly ban and sticking with the decision, but you saw for yourself how laid back I was about it. This was after not being listened to several times up to that point, and I still stayed calm and rational. It gets to a point where enough is enough, and that was the 'honesty' topic. I don't take well to being slandered in public over a private matter, where literal lies are being told about what's transpired. If you think I'm the one who STILL needs to be the 'bigger person' or w/e at that point, ... Anyhow, my point stands. Good day. off. (Laugh Out Loud (L.O.L. for short))

I can't keep debating this tho because it's starting to go in circles. I just think that there should really be a point when enough is enough, and I had passed that point and then some. Yes, I had 'more to lose', you could say, but at that point in time what was I experiencing? A lack of motivation due to not being listened to about multiple subjects, him cracking the whip on me like I was HIS intern, etc. At that point, going out with a bang, as you put it, was the funniest option for me, and here we are today. I value humor in a lot of things, this being one of them. It was extra funny to me to be able to get up to this point, and a laugh from exposing him for who he really is, was my only option for a result that ended favourably for me. If I stayed on the team, how many more times would I be not listened to? How many more demands would be issued for me to complete by x date?

I told you guys I wanted nothing to do with the project financially, and that should have been your heads up that I was feeling quite inadequate in the grand scheme. Which, to you, it was, but for some reason, you kept telling me to stay on with the project financially, I dunno why, but you did. I wanted to step down ages ago, but you didn't let me for one reason or another, whether it had been out of pity for my situation or whatever, I'm not sure. Maybe you were just trying to be a good friend. The signs were there for me for a long time. So that's why this ended up the way it did, pretty much.

edit: may as well chuck this in

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 Post subject: Re: re:Spite drama
PostPosted: April 5th, 2018, 11:11 pm 
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I never felt any malice from you towards me throughout this whole topic, I know it's just the way you express yourself and that you're (understandably) frustrated about everything that happened, including the part where I decided to keep working with Abi despite him booting you and stuff. Your tone and points were indeed fair with re: the kaly ban.

I felt like distancing yourself from the finances would be distancing yourself from the project as a whole, which I didn't want. I mean, especially since that was a conversation where I basically just said "we can make this game without you; u have no value 2 survive". I didn't want to give you the wrong idea, like "Oh, Danno thinks this project is better off without me or that my contributions have zero value. I guess I might as well quit." - since that wasn't the message I wanted to convey at all.

Quote:
... Anyhow, my point stands. Good day. off. (Laugh Out Loud (L.O.L. for short))

lolirl

Regarding friendliness, idk. I could take your word on that, but I didn't get the impression you wanted to make peace and be friends after things started going downhill between you and Abi. I've said it many times before and I'll say it again: I believe most of these issues were based on misunderstandings. It wouldn't have been easy, but I think we could've cleared it up if we talked properly before going to the point of no return. It'd be like "Oh, is that how it was? Now I feel a little silly for resenting you these past few weeks over it. I'm sorry, I'll try to hear you out next time."

In my ideal scenario, it would've played out something like this.
Abi: "If you are willing and able to work without any drama, speak up now. If not, I understand and wish you the best in all your future projects."
Nate: "I'm not looking for drama, I just want to work on the game as a passion project. Unfortunately, I haven't had a chance to do that lately with 50 hour work weeks, being in the middle of moving, and having problems with my software."
Abi: "But you're always busy. Why do you even want to be on this project when you don't have time for it?"
Nate: "Like I said, I'm just busy for the time being. It's peak season at work and I just finished moving. I can see why you might think I was just being lazy, but I just really haven't had a chance to work on things. I'm working on the YouTube vid now and should have a lot more time starting 2 weeks from now."
Abi: "That video should've been done a month ago, though. If you were so busy, why didn't you let us know?"
Nate: "I did tell you guys before! Maybe I wasn't clear enough, though, and I apologize for that. I'm still very interested in working on the game, though."
Abi: "I knew you were busy in early December, I didn't realize you were still so busy. To be honest, I thought you already moved months ago. Sorry for jumping to conclusions. Do you think you could at least revise the disclaimer by the weekend? That shouldn't take too long."
Nate: "Like I said months ago, we should hire a legal professional to write that for us. We don't want to dig our own graves with some flimsy document that won't hold up in court."
Abi: "Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Anyway, how can I be sure that you'll actually be active on the project in 2 weeks? If I'm being honest, your progress so far hasn't been too convincing."
Nate: "How about I step down to 'moderator' status like Skutieos? I don't have time to read all those long chat messages or work on the game as much as you guys do. My primary passion is writing, so I wouldn't mind just working on that at a more casual pace and handing it in once every few weeks like what Skutieos does with music. I didn't want the financial or legal responsibilities that go along with admin status, anyway. I'd still like to help plan stuff like classes and gameplay, though."
Abi: "I suppose that seems fair. I just don't want to go through this again - the weeks of silence and refusing to get through the checklist. We're trying to make a game here and we need to be able to set a release date/deadline for the players."
Danno: "If Nate takes the lower status, it'd be fair to expect less responsibility. We can take care of that stuff while Nate focuses more on writing and video editing."
Nate: "Yeah, I'll also try to check in every few days or so. I didn't mean to be silent for so long, life was just busy and I thought you hated me. Sorry for the misunderstanding."
Abi: "I don't hate you, I just want to have fun working on the game again without tension. I'm sorry I booted you from the project, I was just feeling very frustrated and let my emotions get the better of me."
Danno: "Now that we have that all settled, we can finally get back to work on the game. Going forward, let's be sure to communicate more clearly to avoid assumptions and misunderstandings."
Nate + Abi: "Agreed."
Nate: "Now apologize publicly."
Abi: "What?"
Nate: "I'll only rejoin if you tell everyone you were wrong and that you're sorry."
Abi: "No way!"
Nate: "... Anyhow, my point stands. Good day. off!"



idk u get the idea. The world will never know if a conversation with that sort of flow could've existed. I'd like to think it was possible, but what's done is done. Of course, I still consider you and Krystal to be my close friends, even if I'm being a mediocre friend for not taking your side or standing up for you enough. I can understand if you think less of me or if you don't want to touch a 9999 ft pole that happens to be touching ReSpite.
Attachment:
2018-04-05 9999ft pole.png

I can understand if you still think Abi's an a. hol or if you still think I'm making a mistake here. w/e the case may be, I hope we can still have gotdamn hilarious conversations together, occasionally play SS13 for additional laughs, continue keeping it real without getting to a point of being like "omg ur not my friend anymore TRAITOR", and all the other good stuff that occurs when we happen to be friends.


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People who are all up in your grill

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